Hi, I am trying to simulate a ring oscillator in Modelsim using the delay (.sdo) file generated by Quartus to get the relationship between frequency and # of gates. For some reason whenever I simulate this I get the exact same frequency, 1.6 GHz, regardless if my oscillator has 1 gate or 1000. My simulation is basically just: assign B = ~A; assign C = ~B; assign A = ~C; and then expanded in a generate loop for more gates. An I doing something wrong with the sdo file? I first compile in Modelsim, then select Simulate, add the sdo file, then start. Thanks
Are you sure that you don't generate 1000 3-Inverter Loops that just sit next to each other? Gerhard
I don't know exactly what happens at the other end of the compiler, but I assumed that since every intermediate signal depends on the initial one that it wouldn't separate the inverters.
You cannot simulate analog behavior this way. You only can simulate something similar.
you can simulate this by adding an delay assignment.
I thought that the delay the simulator used (generated by Quartus) would be the same as if I manually added a delay assignment, only I don't know what delay to use in real time. So nothing should be analog in the simulation. All I really want to know is the delay across a single gate, which should accumulate for larger loops, but I'm not confident in my simulation due to the weird results.
Again, you cannot (in no case) simulate the behavior of a ring oscillator, because this function uses analog behavior. The Simulator can only simulate digital behavior.
Of course all circuit behavior is analog behavior, calling it digital is an approximation. Given enough gates the output of the oscillator should be approximately digital. If I just attach a constant delay to each assignment then the oscillator works perfectly in simulation, only I have to guess what the gate delay is. I was hoping the synthesized delay file would have a more accurate delay.
Chris C1111 wrote: > Hi, I am trying to simulate a ring oscillator in Modelsim using the > delay (.sdo) file generated by Quartus to get the relationship between > frequency and # of gates. For some reason whenever I simulate this I get > the exact same frequency, 1.6 GHz, regardless if my oscillator has 1 > gate or 1000. Beside the fact that the frequency will be much differtent in real life: whats the initial value for all the gates? How do you assign it?
I use an external clock and a counter with an initialization signal. assign A = (INIT) ? 1'b1 : ~C; This should initialize all signals.
Chris C1111 wrote: > assign A = (INIT) ? 1'b1 : ~C; And the other ones?
If I set one signal, all the others should be initialized automatically. For the example in my first post if I set A = 1, then B and C are automatically initialized to 0 and 1 since during initialization there is no combinational loop.
Chris C1111 wrote: > For the example in my first post if I set A = 1, then B and C are > automatically initialized to 0 and 1 since during initialization there > is no combinational loop. And after that all "even" signals will be 1 and all "odd" signals will be 0. And thenn, what will happen if they circle araound? Will there (for any single signal) be a difference between the short "10101" sequence and the long "10101010101010101010101010101010101010101" cycling around? No, in both cases each single signal will toggle at maximum speed... So try it with passing through the signal and only toggle its polarity on one bit: assign B = ~A; assign C = B; assign A = C; But then you will have to tell the synthesizer that it has to "keep" all of the signals. In VHDL for Xilinx you could do it this way: http://www.lothar-miller.de/s9y/categories/29-Ringoszillator (try the google translator, its German)
: Edited by Moderator
assign B = #delay ~A; where is the delay per inverter in your model?
When I synthesize it in Quartus it generates a delay file (.sdo) which I use while I run my simulation.
I think I have it figured out. In order to keep the compiler from over simplifying the intermediate gates into a single LUT I need to set all the intermediate signals as outputs. Thanks for the replies!
You don't need to specify the intermediate signals as output. As Lothar told you already, you have to tell Quartus to don't optimize these signals. Take a look at the attributes keep, noprune and preserve. Can't remember right now which one did the trick. I adopted Lothars code to run on a de0nano using Quartus II 12.0.
dasdgw wrote: > I adopted Lothars code to run on a de0nano using Quartus II 12.0. In VHDL? What are the results? Can you show the code? I find it very interesting to compare different architectures... ;-)
Thanks for pointing that out! Somehow I completely missed Lothar's last post. What you said makes perfect sense, I can't believe I missed that. Why does wikipedia state the output frequency is 1/(2*N×inverter delay)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_oscillator (the figure caption) Edit: I don't think what you said is correct. Immediately after initialization, everything is stable except for the first inverter, so the last inverter won't toggle until every inverter before it has. At that point every inverter is stable again except for the first one.
: Edited by User
Chris C1111 wrote: > Edit: I don't think what you said is correct. Hmmm... You and wikipedia are right. I did a short test with symbolic delay:
entity RingO is
Port ( reset : in STD_LOGIC;
fout : out STD_LOGIC);
architecture Behavioral of RingO is
signal ring : std_logic_vector(2 downto 0); -- ungerade Bitanzahl
-- signal ring : std_logic_vector(20 downto 0); -- ungerade Bitanzahl
attribute KEEP : string;
attribute KEEP of ring : signal is "true";
assert ring'length mod 2 = 1 report "Length of ring must be an odd number!" severity failure;
process (ring,reset) begin
for i in ring'range loop
if i = ring'left then
if reset='1' then
ring(i) <= '1';
ring(i) <= not ring(0) after 1ns;
ring(i) <= not ring(i+1) after 1ns;
fout <= ring(0);
I will check this on hardware later... ;-)
: Edited by Moderator
Without the attribute "keep" all of the stages are optimized down to 1 single mux-stage (see screenshots). Of course you could invent an output pin for each bit (as you did), but FPGA IO pins in real life are to expensive for such a simple task...
Yes I didn't know about the keep attribute. Using this my oscillator works well in simulation and on my de0 (although as you predicted the frequency differs greatly). I get about 250MHz with 21 gates on hardware, I'm too scared to go much faster than that.
Chris C. wrote: > I get about 250MHz with 21 gates on > hardware, I'm too scared to go much faster than that. I used ring oscillators with up to 1.2GHz with a chain length which makes sure, that all inverters fully saturate before the signal is looped back to them. According to the switching time and routing, it is possible to tune the model's delays appropriately. http://www.96khz.org/htm/noisegenerator2.htm
I didn't know about the keep attribute. Using this my oscillator works well in simulation and on my de0 (although as you predicted the frequency differs greatly). https://teatv.ltd/dl-now/ https://hellodear.in